Dr. Dylan Petkus reviews Peggy’s shifts with Multiple Sclerosis and poor sleep where her nightly routine, diet, and sleep supplements were not enough.
00:00
Dylan Petkus, MD
All right. Hey, everyone. I want to introduce to you one of my favorite Canadians. This is Peggy here, and she’s someone who has been through quite a bit. And when we first connected, it was one of those scenarios where, like, okay, it’s just this one. We got to get the sleep all sorted out because you know how that can be. You’re fine when your sleep is fine, and then there’s a full moon or your cat’s meowing, or something other comes up, and then that next day is kind of, like, not good at know a very brief summary of Peggy and a lot more kind of to that. And I really wanted to, I mean, first of all, thank Peggy for being here, sharing her story and her success in being able to really sort of capture in terms of.
00:51
Dylan Petkus, MD
Because so many people go through health issues for years and years, and Peggy was that person who kept going and going and going till she’s like, all right, I am definitely on the way to 100% because I know a lot of people out there. Very similar story. And so having that inspiration of someone who is you know, a few steps or maybe a lot of steps ahead of you is always ensuring there. So, thank you, Peggy, for joining us here today. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about in terms of where you were kind of when we first sort of connected. You can tell a little bit about the past there as well, but kind of more about where it all came before you were like, all right, let’s kind of call these people up in America.
01:39
Dylan Petkus, MD
What kind of issues were you working through at that time?
01:46
Peggy
Yeah, so, as you mentioned, when I reached out to you, I really thought that at that point in my health journey, I was reaching out to fix that one thing that I couldn’t quite figure out. And that one thing was sleep. But interestingly, it had started quite a few years prior to me reaching out to you. So it was in the fall of 2014, I started having some sleep issues. And I used to be someone who used to sleep through the night, didn’t have issues, but all of a sudden, I started waking up in the middle of the night and couldn’t fall back asleep, and I didn’t really think much of it. I just kind of drank my coffee in the morning and went about my day. And that’s just how it was. I just didn’t really think twice about it.
02:38
Peggy
And then that kind of escalated, and there were other things that were going on, and I started having aches and pains, and a few neurological issues started showing up the year after and being the personality that I am, which was kind of more like, I don’t think too much about things. I didn’t think this was anything to worry about, so I just kind of went about my days. But then, eventually, things got pretty bad. And then, in the fall of 2016, the neurological issues started getting worse, and I ended up being hospitalized that December and was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. So, yeah, after that, I had a lot to fix, and I started doing a lot of online research. It was just a really hard time, and the doctors were not really giving me solutions as to what I can do.
03:52
Peggy
It was just kind of like, well, this is what you have, and then good luck. They didn’t exactly say it that way, but I kind of felt that way. I was on my own, and I had a few options, but not many. Now, luckily, I kind of started doing my own research, and I figured things out and I started eating well and doing all these kinds of things, and I did notice a difference. I just started to get better, and I thought, well, okay, there’s something to this, taking care of yourself. So I really immersed myself in all of this, and because of that, things started reversing, and I started feeling better. So I just continued and kept doing a lot of research. But, yeah, at this point, I had a lot of other issues, and I started.
04:40
Peggy
Even though I was physically feeling increasingly better mentally, things were getting worse. I guess with the anxiety of being diagnosed with something like multiple sclerosis and not knowing what’s going to happen, anxiety just got really bad. And then, eventually, the sleeping actually got worse. So I would sleep like 2 hours a night if I was lucky, and it was pretty bad, then it was so bad, I had to quit my job. At the time, I had lost my ability to just do things on a daily basis because I didn’t know if I was going to sleep. I didn’t know how anxiety was going to pan out. So, yeah, it was pretty bad. And I kept doing my research. I was online a lot.
05:40
Peggy
I was somebody who was doing the work, and I would find things, but I was one of those people who thought, okay, if I can just find whatever was a supplement or there had to be something that would fix that, but it didn’t. So the sleep got a little bit better at some point when I worked through a lot of my anxiety issues and starting to physically be a little better, but it was not a slam dunk. I would sleep almost okay one night, and then I can have other nights where, you know, practically not sleep at all. I had in all the research that I was doing, I came across your Facebook page. I don’t remember how I found you, but probably because I was looking up things like, I don’t know, circadian rhythm.
06:39
Peggy
And then I found you and I started watching your videos, and it just really resonated with me. I just remember thinking, yes, okay. A lot of things that you would explain made sense. So I started having even more answers as to why I broke and what I needed to fix. And it made me realize, oh, yeah, there’s more to it. I did watch for a while. I didn’t reach out to you right away, but I couldn’t fix those sleep issues, so I ended up reaching out, and I just trusted that you knew what you were doing and surrendered to see what you were going to do for me. So that’s kind of how I found you.
07:32
Dylan Petkus, MD
Yeah. A lot of good things there. I think a lot of people can resonate with it. Definitely, there are so many good nuggets in there. We’re going to do some nugget mining here in terms of, you have the kind of things pop up, and a lot of times you just like, oh, that’s interesting. You kind of keep going, and then it reaches that kind of boiling point in a way of where that big label, that diagnosis comes out of, where something where a doctor’s like, well, you have MS, and obviously it’s not something that’s to take lightly there, but it is kind of like you said, Peggy, where it’s like, well, we can do this immune modulation therapy or maybe something else. Well, not kind of. And there’s kind of that, like, okay.
08:25
Dylan Petkus, MD
And that’s what really defines someone like you and many other people who are probably watching this. Like, okay, now it’s kind of on me because this is kind of like my body to kind of take that sort of stand for and being able to do that and going on that research path. And you kind of do the thing of where you get your basics in order. Okay. Eating a certain way. Okay, check maybe some mind-body components, like, I don’t know, not freaking out all the time. That’s usually helpful. But I’m not saying that he did that, but kind of like things people kind of generally go through. And then there is that kind of point of where you’re like, all right, maybe it’s this one thing or that one thing and that one thing.
09:11
Dylan Petkus, MD
And then you kind of, like, go stumbling around, and sometimes you stumble into people talking about circadian rhythms on Facebook and all that stuff, which is our name, Optimal Circadian Health, and being able to kind of be like, okay, maybe there’s something here because after you do kind of all the little itty bitty things, you kind of realize there’s more of that sort of systems approach that’s needed there. And so one thing I’m curious about, or maybe you could explain a little bit more in depth. At the initial conversation I think you had with barb, how would you describe your sleep patterns? Was it like every other night was really bad? This was like many moons ago, pun intended, I guess. But what would you say your sleep was at?
10:03
Dylan Petkus, MD
Was it like every other night, every three nights, or what did that look like? Kind of to describe, like, you’d be up and then pretty much up for the next like 6 hours. How was that suffering?
10:16
Peggy
So at that point, it wasn’t as bad as a few years back where I’d literally be sleeping 2 hours at night, and I somehow had to survive on 2 hours of sleep. I mean, some people understand that. So it was better than that. I would sleep more hours, but there were moments where I’d either be waking up in the middle of the night, and then it would take me two, three, four hours to fall back asleep. Not often I woke up at one or two in the morning, couldn’t fall back asleep. So it was kind of a crapshoot. I couldn’t count on sleep, I guess, is how I felt. It wasn’t one of those, hey, you can just fall asleep, know that you’re going to sleep through the night and wake up rested and all of that good stuff.
11:17
Peggy
But in addition, I see now there was anxiety at that point associated to the sleep. It had become such a scary thing. I was scared to go to bed and I was scared to see what would happen. Would I be able to fall asleep? Well, no, falling asleep wasn’t too bad, but would I be able to stay asleep? Would I wake up in the middle of the night feeling anxious and all of that? And because of that, I didn’t feel comfortable making plans, or seeing friends. It was always in the back of my mind, so it was just not a good place to be. So when I reached out to you, that’s where I was.
12:07
Dylan Petkus, MD
And that’s a lot of times where sleep ends up for a lot of people is, I know the metaphor is horrible. It’s a bit cliche, but I’m just going to go there. Sleep becomes a nightmare in a big way of where it’s like, all right, I have to have this big routine. I have to have my chamomile tea at 08:32 p.m. And then exactly 5 grams of glucose at 8:42 pm. You have this very sort of tight, rigid thing. And the rigidity, in a way, kind of hurts things in that sort of bigger runner where you’re like, oh my gosh, one thing goes wrong, oh, jeez, this is already ruined. Or you have this such routine and then it just really gets out of hand from there. And you’ve been there, I’ve been there.
12:54
Dylan Petkus, MD
But when you’re having those three to four hours in the middle of the night where you’re awake, it is that thing aware, okay, the next day this is ruined here. And that’s just kind of where a lot of things and kind of tying that in back together. What you were talking about before that is something that has a huge impact on the body not being able to allow that time for recovery. And not just like the level of recovery. People are like, oh, your body needs to rest and recover. But as you’ve learned working with us, like the recovery, what that really means at that deep sort of bioenergetic level in terms of your body being able to really rebuild those engines at night. And that’s when those things like MS sort of pop up like that.
13:38
Dylan Petkus, MD
And so I’m not sure if we already mentioned it, but I already kind of poked fun at it. But what were some of the things you were doing at that time? Because not like all the sort of changes over the three and a half or four years there, but some of the main things you were doing and were just like, okay, why do I feel my sleep at night is kind of like a slot machine in terms of what I’m going to get out of it. What were some of those things you were doing?
14:11
Peggy
There was the food component, as in, like, I eat well, and so that was there, but that wasn’t associated with sleep. But as far as sleep goes, yes, there was exactly what you were mentioning, that it became quite a routine. I have to do this, and I have to use the lavender, and I have to take a bath at this time and that temperature, and then nobody make any noise, earplugs, the whole thing. It was quite a production. But I would say the biggest part would be, I feel I was just, I thought supplements, for instance, would be the answer, but I didn’t really realize, okay, so I wasn’t taking medications or anything like that anymore because at some point that’s what was offered to me. But I thought, okay, let me do this. The natural way.
15:07
Peggy
But I didn’t really realize that supplements, they have their place, but it’s not the solution. At some point, I remember when I was sleeping a little better, I had my nightstand full of supplements. There was the GABA and the melatonin at some point, and there was just a bunch of things. And there was other supplements during the day, too. I mean, I was trying them all as soon as I found something on the Internet. Here’s some research about how this helps sleep. Then I thought, that’s it. I’m going to do this, and this is going to help. So all sorts of supplements. But in my nightstand, I did have my usual. There was something like GABA and maybe CBD. And then if I woke up in the middle of the night, then, well, I can take a little bit of something.
16:13
Peggy
There was a bunch of them not saying that they don’t necessarily have their place, but I had become dependent on those two, and I was just barking up the wrong tree. But I didn’t know, is that going to help? And that would be a solution. And you were like, that doesn’t quite work that way. Okay, yeah, I’ll trust you, and I don’t know how I’ll stop taking. I trusted that you knew better than I did.
16:50
Dylan Petkus, MD
Or we could always say, not barking up the wrong tree, but maybe going down the wrong Valerian root, and we’ll just move right by that pun there and be able to smooth that over. You’re at that point where you’re doing the supplements, and you kind of have this, like, okay, I’ve researched this for many hours. Here’s kind of the protocol template and still being at that point. So I remember you reached out to me on Facebook messenger, and then we kind of got you set up and know from there in terms of, all right. And so, Peggy, when you started doing a lot of the principles, putting those into play, what was that like for you in terms of not only were you doing all the research, you came to your conclusions, and now we’re like, yeah, let’s do this instead.
17:46
Dylan Petkus, MD
So not only the sort of the cognitive shift, but then also the shifts in terms of the little improvements you were seeing in those initial sort of weeks there for you. What was that like for you?
17:59
Peggy
Yeah, like I said, when I reached out to you, it was like, okay, if I can just fix the sleep, I’m on top of things. Well, I wasn’t exactly thinking like that, but that’s kind of subconsciously how I felt. So I started applying the principles that you suggested, and I wouldn’t say sleep improved right away. It wasn’t like, oh, here you go. The next day, I can sleep. But I pretty quickly started feeling shifts, and what I thought was just some physical, I would say, oh, I’d have these physical things going on, but it was anxiety. It’s just that it wasn’t through the roof that it was like the way it was a few years back, but it was still there, especially when I would wake up in the middle of the night.
18:52
Peggy
So initially, I would still wake up in the middle of the night, but I remember thinking, oh, okay, I’m now awake, but I’m not feeling like my heart’s going to rip out of my chest. I’m not anxious. It’s just I’m awake and okay, and I can fall back asleep. So that was an initial pretty quick improvement, but I didn’t think about it much at the time. And then I started having moments, like nights, where I was able to fall asleep quickly. So that was a big one because I’d never, even from childhood, I always had that racing mind, and I was never able to fall asleep fairly quickly, even years back. But then, all of a sudden, I was able to go to bed and 15 minutes later, fall asleep. And that happened pretty quickly.
20:03
Peggy
And then at some point, I remember falling asleep and going through many hours of sleep and then kind of waking up going, oh, okay, I had to get up to use the bathroom or something, but it was like, oh, okay, what happened? I was asleep now. Okay, let me just go to the bathroom, come back, and be able to fall back asleep. And then I started having occasional nights where I just fell asleep and had six, seven hours of sleep and wake up afterward and think, well, I just woke up, and I felt like I was actually sleeping, meaning that I was out and I didn’t move that much and felt refreshed. So, yeah, those happened sort of quickly for me. Yeah. And then I guess I started having other improvements.
21:13
Peggy
The bonus was, I mean, at some point, I thought, okay, well, other things, I have things under control, but here’s the sleep as a bonus. I started feeling less anxious and all of that good stuff. But then, even physically, where I thought, okay, I was at what I would tell you, 95%, my body was almost fully recovered. Physically, I started having improvements, even physical improvements. So that was this bonus. And it just keeps going. I think, okay, now I’m 95%. And then something else happens, and I feel something, a new improvement. And then I think, well, that wasn’t really at 95%. I am now, all these, I guess, bonuses to the sleep, where I guess, as you mentioned, sleep is something that’s necessary to do all this good stuff, like repair.
22:14
Peggy
I didn’t realize that I was doing good things by eating well and doing all that good stuff, but I wasn’t really getting that consistently good sleep to allow me to really repair. And so now I’m starting to realize, oh, okay. Now that the sleep is increasingly getting better and it just gets better and better, I’m seeing how even physically, I’m starting to feel much better than I have in years.
22:45
Dylan Petkus, MD
Yeah. And kind of the one thing that shifts for a lot of people is like, okay, we’re the sleep people, or whatever. Maybe we are because some people were just really boring. But in all seriousness, when you understand kind of how sleep works and how it ties into the things Peggy’s talking about now, having more physical energy during the daytime, and now the question becomes, like, what if I told you that sleep was this highly energy-intensive process, and when you kind of fix how your body is producing energy and all that good stuff at that deep, subcellular level there, that then allows you to see improvements in both, because that’s exactly what it is. There is no quick fix to, like, okay, I haven’t slept well in 20 years, and then we snap our fingers in two days.
23:32
Dylan Petkus, MD
You’re, like, sleeping through the night like a cat here. Well, I guess cats don’t sleep through the night, but being able to really recognize, okay, we got to build up these foundational blocks here again. And not only is the sleep improving, but even on the nights of where you don’t sleep well, that day is way better. A lot less anxiety, a lot more physical capacity, endurance, a lot more mental clarity, because you’re addressing kind of the whole system here, which a lot of people don’t always appreciate when they’re out there trying to figure things out. And that’s something where we really teach all of our folks here. And so that was, I forget when you initially graduated, but those are the shifts that you had in that initial time working together.
24:17
Dylan Petkus, MD
So where would you say you are at now with sleep and then some of the other physical components for you?
24:27
Peggy
So now it’s a case where I usually sleep through the night with maybe getting up once or twice that I just get up and fall back asleep. But for the most part, I sleep through the night. I have the occasional minor sleep issues, but that’s no longer the norm. It’s the exception. Since graduating, one of the improvements I had that I didn’t realize, well, I mean, I did realize because I would tell people, well, I’m always in pain. I didn’t know how to describe it. I had just body aches all over the place. And just all of a sudden, that gradually went away. And that’s happened since. I don’t remember when I graduated, but since then, I no longer have the consistent aches, pains, fibromyalgia, or whatever you want to call that. So that’s a huge improvement as well.
25:38
Peggy
And another one is mentally. I’m starting to feel more sharp again because that was something that had, I struggled it for a while, and now it’s getting much better. So, yeah, just the improvements just keep going on. But more than anything, I feel like what I got out of all of this is that moving forward, now I know. Okay, here are the pieces I used to say with the pieces of my health puzzle, but I thought there was that one little piece, but you helped me realize, well, yes, there is that piece, but here you go. That let us scramble all these pieces of the puzzle. And now we’re actually putting the puzzle together correctly. And I feel like moving forward more than anything.
26:32
Peggy
I can be in good health, and I feel confident and hopeful and just keep improving as opposed to what I used to think a few years back, which was my life was going to be about just getting worse and things were going to be downhill, and that’s not the case. And all is good.
27:02
Dylan Petkus, MD
Yeah. And that’s such a thing that comes up all the time in terms of like, you’re saying all the puzzle pieces and even be like, all right. And then there’s kind of the tiny ones, like, okay, here’s this piece. Here’s that piece, like these big pieces that a lot of people miss. And it really simplifies things down in a way of where I would just imagine since you graduated from the initial time period, it wasn’t necessarily about adding more stuff. It was about really mastery of those things, which a lot of people, because the culture is just like, okay, add this thing, n-acetylcysteine, add GABA.
27:47
Dylan Petkus, MD
It’s just kind of just is like a never-ending thing of where every single time you listen to a podcast, 16 minutes later, now you’re on Amazon putting something into your cart or at the supplement store or whatever, but really being able to simplify things down, it’s like, okay, put these things into place. You have those shifts a lot more calm, a lot more sort of steadiness, a lot more mental clarity, a lot more consistency in your sleep, and then you let time do the heavy lifting, but then even then, it’s not like what you’ll hear from some people, because I know some of the other people in this space are like, oh, yeah, it’s going to take like two, maybe three years, and then you’ll start to see some shifts. And I’m just like, wait, what?
28:35
Dylan Petkus, MD
Maybe like two to three years to be at your winning something like a competition at your local CrossFit, but being able to get to that level of where, like, okay, big shifts, just got to keep doing it. There will be little wobbles because that’s just life. That’s kind of, I think, a lot more pleasant place to be, if you can correct me if I’m wrong there and then.
29:02
Peggy
Yeah.
29:06
Dylan Petkus, MD
Go ahead.
29:08
Peggy
I was just going to say that, I mean, when I first found your page, and I started watching videos, I felt that you really kind of understood. Like, it really just resonated with me because I remember when I was at my worst and I had MS was just one thing. There were other issues as well. But I remember in the back of my mind, I always thought, well, okay, well, this doesn’t make sense, what the doctors are saying. And they’re just saying, well, all you can do is maybe take this medication, and hopefully you won’t get worse quickly, and off you go. I remember thinking, well, why did this happen to me? And nobody was able to explain it.
29:59
Peggy
And what you offered was so much wealth of information, where you also explained a lot more to me, but it allowed me to go. All these issues that I had, from autoimmunity to whatever you want to call it, adrenal fatigue, and insomnia. It was like, oh, okay, this is why you broke. And that’s what I really wanted to understand. Like, okay, why did this happen to me? And you offered that in addition to that. Then you said, okay, well, this is why this happens, and this is why this happened. You were always able to answer all my questions because I had a lot of questions. And then, in addition to that, you were able to say, well, this is why it happens, and this is why this happens.
30:52
Peggy
And here’s what you do moving forward, which is exactly what I needed and what I wanted to hear. And that’s, I think, true health, true hope, because going from the mindset, just, let’s fix something and just add one thing, or even the word cure doesn’t make people who say, let’s cure something. Well, no, I understand that. I am well now, and I’m getting better and I’m fine. But to say I’m cured of this or that’s not how things work. I mean, I’m well because I’m doing the right things. And you really help me figure that out and move forward in the right way. But if I don’t do the right things, then health is not just there, it’s something that is there and then can easily go away.
31:46
Peggy
And I wish people kind of understood that, understand that and do the things that support that, as opposed to thinking, well, I need that one thing, or, yes, I’m going to cure this or that. It’s not something that’s static.
32:09
Dylan Petkus, MD
It’s definitely this very complex thing, I think is the understatement of the century here. But being at that point, like you’re saying, where if it’s the fibromyalgia pains, if it’s the MS, the sleep, being able to know how those are all linked together and being able to, okay, here’s how you improve how those things are showing up, as opposed to the other way where like, oh, okay, let’s deal with the pain here. Let’s deal with the sleep issues. Because conventional and also functional medicine does the same thing. They just use supplements instead of medications. That’s where they’ll operate, and that’s where you’re going in, like, ten different directions. Like, oh, I do this for my fibromyalgia. I do this for my sleep. But when you’re able to kind of see, okay, this is how it’s all connected.
32:55
Dylan Petkus, MD
And even when you’re on the group calls that we do, it’s like, okay, oh, I learned about, let’s say, learning about Hashimoto’s. It now helps me understand a little bit more about MS. And being able to really pull that all together for yourself not only gets you results, but it’s also very satisfying in terms of just being like, this is way simpler than most people make it out to be. And when you are able to simplify it down, that’s when it’s a lot more actionable. And then that’s what makes things easier, where you don’t have to keep up with all the different things, and you can kind of focus on more things that make life fun in a way. Although some people do really enjoy learning more and more about these things.
33:39
Dylan Petkus, MD
I know you do, for sure, but that’s being able to kind of get the correct picture dialed in. It’s not my picture. It’s kind of how nature does her thing over there. And then when you’re able to really apply that. That’s when you can be like, Peggy here, being someone who you have that history of where you really got taken down to a point of where it’s like, okay, things are not really good. You build your way back up, but it almost feels like there’s a ceiling, and you’re kind of, like, stuck at that level, and you’re like, okay, well, this is fine to deal with on the days I do sleep, but on the days where I don’t sleep, it’s not. Or, like, for other people, like, the days I have a very productive day, the day after is a complete mess.
34:26
Dylan Petkus, MD
Or people working Monday through Friday and then the weekends, being able to really see where all those sort of breaks sort of show up. And that’s why a lot of people get stuck in the stickiness, so to speak. And so, Peggy, we’re glad we could get you unstuck from so many of those things. And being able to see you build upward in terms, know, sleep and all the other components, all the nervous system things. And being able to be at that point of where you are on that path to where, you know, like, okay, that sort of full picture, you have all the pieces in place is exactly where you’re going. So, thank you so much for sharing your story with us here today, Peggy.
35:01
Dylan Petkus, MD
And just for everyone out here, I mean, where Peggy started is exactly kind of like where you are right now, watching one of our videos and thinking, okay, is this something where we can help out? And if you have something similar and resonate with Peggy, the chances are yes. But the other thing is, I’m also not a telepathic mind reader. And so that’s why we do our breakthrough sessions, know, we talk, because, again, I don’t know telepathy or psychic powers yet. And we see kind of what’s going on, be able to see where you want to go and see if we can connect the dots and obviously help out your health issues that well.
35:36
Dylan Petkus, MD
But also being at a point of where maybe you’re here, right here, doing an interview and being able to show other people that, yes, you can come from a place of where you are at this sort of feeling like you’re at the bottom, being able to make those improvements, but knowing there’s that gap and being able how to close that gap with the powerful principles and tools that not only is the foundation but also for your individual needs, because that’s what’s going to help you make those breakthroughs. And it all starts with the free breakthrough session that we have. So go to optimalcircadianhealth.com/talk. There’s a calendar there. Pick a time, and then that’s as simple as it is, really. And then 45, 60 minutes, we’ll chat with you and then we’ll really figure out the next best steps for you.
36:18
Dylan Petkus, MD
And for now, the next best steps for us. I guess we’re saying goodbye. So thank you so much, Peggy, for sharing your story and being able to it’s really great to see you making those initial changes and seeing those shifts and then being able to really know that 5% is something. It’s a bigger five than we thought it was initially, but you’ve definitely moved through it. Being able to see you get all the way to 100% is fantastic and going to be fantastic as well. So thank you so much for your time, Peggy.
36:53
Peggy
Thank you.
36:55
Dylan Petkus, MD
Of course. All right, everyone, signing off. Goodbye.