Dr. Dylan reviews Christine bouncing back after 40 years of fatigue. She had been told she had chronic fatigue syndrome among other things but nothing she was doing was enough.
00:00
Dylan Petkus, MD
Of my favorite people across the pond, and I’m not talking about Lake Michigan. She’s not Canadian. She is Christine. She’s over in the UK here and she has just been one of my absolute favorite people to work with. Being able to see her bright smile get brighter and brighter every single Q and A we’ve had in our calls and being able to really see you light up and definitely one of the most talented people with emojis I’ve ever had the pleasure of working with. She goes with the one with the stars in your eyes, which I don’t know, we’ll have to get our emoji expert on here later to edit that in. But yeah, I’m really excited to talk about Christine’s story and journey with us and where she was, where she is now. And it’s going to be a fun one.
00:47
Dylan Petkus, MD
So, Christine, why don’t you tell us about kind of where you were in terms of we don’t need to go all the way to the past in terms of when your parents first met, but in terms of your fatigue and all those issues, what was kind of like the history there and then, where were you in terms of the problems you were experiencing?
01:13
Christine
Yeah, well, I’m in my mid fifty’s now and started with fatigue when I was about twelve and kind of gone up and down and I’ve managed life and I’ve had full-time jobs and kids, but fatigue in more recent years has got worse and it’s more recently that life was starting to get easier. So I was expecting my fatigue should have got easier as well and be going, but actually it was getting worse. I was getting less and less able to do anything, which got quite scary because I was doing lots of good things, meditating, eating healthily, getting as much exercise as I could cope with, and doing lots of the things that we’re told to do to be healthy, but it wasn’t working. My energy was getting less, not more.
02:03
Dylan Petkus, MD
Yeah. And that’s such a common thread for so many people because you had it for. Well, I guess people can just do the math, but it’s three or four decades there in terms of teens to where you are now and you’re not 50, you’re 50 years young, it’s advanced, but it happens for so many people of where they’re doing the things, they’re doing the diet, especially in the UK, because I know pacing is more of a concept over there where you’re doing as much exercise as you can, you’re doing the diet things. Christine is a meditation goddess over here. But a lot of times that doesn’t really get you to sort of the next stage. It kind of has you in a bit of a holding pattern at times.
02:50
Dylan Petkus, MD
And life is going to throw you those curveballs of where things come up, and then that’s where you have those incremental things downward. And that’s where it does get scary because you’re doing all the things, but then the reality that you’re seeing is not really reflecting that. And so, Christine, if you don’t mind sharing in terms of when you’re thinking about the hardships you were experiencing because of that, in sort of the course of time, what did that look like?
03:23
Christine
Sure. I think you’re just saying about life’s curveballs. We all get them, we all know they’re going to happen. But I think everyone that came my way, And of course, we’ve all had lockdown, which to me was another curveball as well. My resilience just got less and less every time. And one thing after another, just that physical energy was going, as was my mental energy to cope. So it was just kind of just getting less and less all the time, no matter what I was doing, even though I was doing the good stuff, working with good people, doing lots and resting lots, but it still just didn’t work. I couldn’t pull it together. And that’s quite a scary place to be. Especially you got responsibilities. And I always have been motivated to do stuff.
04:14
Christine
It’s not as though I kind of had lost the will to do stuff. I really wanted to do stuff, but I couldn’t. And that was depressing in itself because I was positive and couldn’t be, couldn’t live my life as I wanted.
04:27
Dylan Petkus, MD
Yeah. And that’s such kind of what happens there, the resting component, because sometimes that’s all you can do or all you’ll be told to do, but doesn’t really help you kind of move up from there. And that is mean. Definitely, Christine, as you just said, I, can relate. A lot of times when you’re in that resting mode, that’s actually where you know it’s incredibly hard to be positive. And that’s where a lot of things get dark. In terms of just like, okay, what if this is it? What if things do get worse? And that’s just how things are. Christine, in terms of how would you describe sort of your function? What were you able to get done? Was it like just the basics at home or what would you say about that?
05:17
Christine
I mean, sometimes not the basics. And I was fairly good at choosing always making sure I did things that did nurture me. So I’ve always, throughout the whole of this, kept my meditation group going because they’re brilliant, they support me, I support them. That’s been huge. But by doing that has the cost of I really can’t do everything at home that I should be doing. So things like even just cooking for myself, never mind my family, I often just have not been able to cook myself a decent meal, which doesn’t help your health, and just things like cooking, cleaning, even getting the shopping. I kind of moved to getting all the food delivered just to be easier and just doing things like, right, I’ve got a tiny amount of energy.
06:07
Christine
Am I going to get a little bit of being outside and perhaps chat with a friend or do I go food shopping? I need the food shopping, but that doesn’t actually sustain me. But I really need both. But which do I do? Having to make quite hard choices about what to do with that limited energy, which then, of course, knocks on how you feel about yourself. It’s harder to keep up with friends, look after your family and just be positive with my family and still have the energy to have fun. All of that just got more and more challenging to do.
06:39
Dylan Petkus, MD
Yeah. And a lot of times that’s kind of the point to where the basics, it’s like you’re thinking of all the things you have to do, and then it sometimes comes down to like, well, which one can I do today? And that’s kind of the level that you were at with that. A lot of times there’s that temptation to try to do two things in a day. In terms of crashes for you, what did that look like, and what was going on there?
07:10
Christine
Yeah, no, I did crash and, yeah, sometimes I’d have a lot of time where I would just have to be on the sofa a lot. And I’m not that sort of person. That’s not where I want to be or how to live. But if I was going to survive for the next day, I’m going to have to lie down a lot today. And it’s just made it so much harder. And then you’re starting to eat food that’s less healthy and, you know, that’s not good for you, but it’s kind of that downward spiral is very easy to get into and hard to get out of.
07:45
Dylan Petkus, MD
Yeah. In between the low level and the crashes, in terms of being able to support yourself with the two kiddos that you have. Well, I guess they’re quite large kiddos now, but how difficult was it to just really kind of keep everything altogether as, like, the mom and really all that and that family dynamic for you?
08:15
Christine
Really hard. Extremely hard. It’s kind of probably when I’ve been at my most deal, the meditation has helped the most to keep me going, but it has been hugely challenging and I haven’t always done my best, or I suppose probably I’ve always tended to put my family first, so I neglect me even more. So, yeah, I’ve kind of looked after what their needs, but neglect mine even more, which then, of course, makes you more tired the next day. So it’s kind of always huge compromises, using precious energy to make the choices about how to use that precious energy tomorrow. Yeah, it was.
08:58
Dylan Petkus, MD
Yeah. And then the other sort of component that, and only if you mind sharing, in terms of having half fatigue for so long and so early in you, in terms of what you saw in your own kids, if you want to share that as well. What were your concerns there for them?
09:21
Christine
Well, they have a level of fatigue as well. And I know that I need to lead our family to better health and at one point I felt like I was kind of leading us downhill rather than uphill. Or again, it’s that kind of compromise. Do I support them to try and help them get healthier, but then I’m more tired, so I can do less the next day. And having that low energy in the house, we need a lot of high energy to kind of look after us and keep us all motivated. So, yeah, again, it was hugely challenging to keep that going. He’s changed so much already.
10:05
Dylan Petkus, MD
Yeah, we’ll get into that. That is such a theme that comes up all the time. I think about 90% of the people we work with are women, and that’s a big reason. I mean, there’s a lot of biological reasons we can get into, but there are those components as well, of where you have so much weight on your shoulders, of where you have to run the household and then you have two teenagers, which I can’t convert teenagers into units of household chores, but I think we all know how that is because either you have them or you were recently a teenager, so you can know how that can look like.
10:44
Dylan Petkus, MD
And so in terms, Christine, trying to really turn things around, especially you’re in the UK, so you have more of the NHS sort of perspective in a way, even though that wasn’t sort of like a big thing for you know, in terms of the things that you tried and just, you know, these sort of diet changes or these. These guys in nice white coats at the. Like, what were some of the things you went through and were like, oh, a little bit improvement and then kind of back to baseline or square one, or just like things that just didn’t flat out work or maybe some things that set you back? What was that?
11:23
Christine
I mean, certainly, as you mentioned, our NHS, who is fabulous, certainly for the individuals we’ve worked with, but a lot of the data and research they use is wrong and for our practicalities doesn’t match our state. So things like the pacing. One of my children had fabulous support to manage the fatigue and that included the pacing and it just made my child worse. It did not help at all, as in going to meetings to sit down and seriously talk about your fatigue. A lot of the things that are in place to support us are actually really exhausting by the time you’ve waited for your appointment and then you wait here and you wait there and the whole thing is just utterly exhausting. So, yeah, so we’ve done a bit of that, but not an awful lot.
12:18
Christine
And like many UK people, you get your blood done. Oh, you’re healthy, but I’m not. My blood might show that I’m okay on your test, but I don’t think it is, actually, because I’d be feeling a lot livelier. But I’ve also done alternatives which I think have helped support, perhaps taken a bit of the sting out, but they haven’t been a cure by a long shot. So I’ve done acupuncture, homeopathy, some hypnotherapy. So quite a few different mind and body things that have definitely helped us cope made a difference, but they have not made the change. It’s kind of been a sticking plaster is perhaps a little bit better than a sticking plaster, but it’s helped us cope a bit more. But they have not given us any health solutions at all.
13:16
Christine
And the three of us have tried different things with different personalities, we’ve done different things in different ways for who wants to try what? And, yeah, none of it worked, sadly.
13:30
Dylan Petkus, MD
Yeah, because so many good points in there, especially for. I’ll speak to everyone on the island, as they say in the UK, I don’t think anyone says that. And the other islands, in terms of America and America’s Canada and other people in Australia, New Zealand that we speak with as well, pacing, I don’t think anyone is a fan of it, but that’s where everyone just goes to. Because there was like one research study like ten years ago that showed maybe it helps, but not really, but that’s where everyone gets put into.
14:04
Dylan Petkus, MD
And it’s one of those perfect examples of, oh, the research says this, and then you have people’s experience where if I had a dime, which I’m not sure what that converts to in pounds there if I had a sterling for every time person was like, oh, I’ve done pacing, and it didn’t help, I would be the Queen of England at this rate. So it’s just something, again, where you go in the conventional route, and then it’s just like you get the conventional results. In the other translation here, bloods for people in the States here, that’s just lab tests. That’s how you want to think of that.
14:38
Dylan Petkus, MD
But it’s the same story where they’re looking for certain things, and yes, they’re important to get, because you may have something that’s really simple and easy to fix, but if that were the case, it doesn’t take decades and decades to find out. And that’s where a lot of people get stuck, and especially know NHS. Whatever is going on in Canada, I think they know people on horses and doctors, I think that’s what they do up there, or even in the States where you’re just going from doctor to doctor doing blood work to blood work, and you’re not really getting anywhere. And then kind of the big thing there, Christine was saying, is the mind-body stuff. I always like to say it’s necessary, but it’s not sufficient, because when we’re thinking about this problem, it’s like two sides of the coin here.
15:16
Dylan Petkus, MD
You have the psychology, which, yeah, you need to have that a good place, otherwise it’s going to be miserable. But you also need the physiology as well to really be able to move those forward to a big extent there. So Christine’s like one of those perfect examples, because we have a lot of people who know mind-body because that’s the only thing that kind of helps you get through the day when all your external circumstances in your body are falling apart, but you need that extra sort of physiological aspect to get it to that next level. And it’s funny, because a lot of times, Christine, people will ask me when they’re first talking, they’re like, oh, do you just do motivational things? I’m like, do you think running over colds is going to. Anyway, it’s another story for another day.
16:00
Dylan Petkus, MD
But in terms of when you found us, Christine, take us back to what must have been like four or five months ago. I’m not sure when. But you were first watching that masterclass like so many people do, and you were like, who is this Yankee over here? What was that you saw and were like, okay, maybe there’s something here. What was going through your mind then?
16:27
Christine
Sure. No, I really remember that master class because it’s just like, oh, wow, that makes sense. I understand it. That fits. And it was just the first time ever in all these decades that I’ve heard, I actually understand that. And it’s not complicated, it’s very specific, but actually, it’s not rocket science. It’s basic. And why haven’t a lot of other people kind of looked at that way? And the one thing I remember you saying is that you can have a Ferrari engine, but if it’s broken. Doesn’t matter how fabulous it is or what fuel you put into it’s broken.
17:13
Christine
And, yes, and that’s the one that kind of really clicked with me of, yeah, this body needs to start working properly because I know it’s not, and I know it’s not my mindset, and I know it’s had lots of opportunities to recover if it could do so easily, but we haven’t found the right combination. And listening to your masterclass, which I would highly recommend anyone to do, that just totally made sense. Understandable. It didn’t make me feel tired to listen to it either.
17:51
Dylan Petkus, MD
Yes, I know. I’m just so exciting and vibrant. But, yeah, because I must say this, at least ten times a day, it’s like, yeah, you got to be able to fix those engines. Ferrari, which I guess, is closer to Christine because Ferrari, I think, is in Italy. So that’s over there. But, yeah, being able to have that engine all sort of geared up, that’s that physiology component. And it is so simple. Once you understand that and then you have someone to have those little details out in place, you’re like, okay, Christine, we got to fix this piston and that thing and this thing. And so in terms of when we’re upgrading your Ferrari, we had to get you to that point where you’re hitting your stride.
18:34
Dylan Petkus, MD
But when eventually you were getting all those details down in what were those improvements that you started to see, say, in sleep, fewer crashes, getting through the day, even just having hope that you are making those steady improvements, what were those things that you were experiencing?
18:52
Christine
All those four and everything else? So, yeah, the sleep improving and actually feeling better for having sleep, because sometimes I could have had a big sleep, but actually didn’t feel any better for it. So actually sleeping and it works and also sleep takes ages to sort out. But even on days when it was less sleep, it wasn’t such a big deal because you know you’re getting better and you’ve learned how to relax about it. And once you’ve got relaxed, that mindset of being able to see that I know this works because you’re talking with other people in the Facebook group and who are further ahead than you, and it’s working for everybody. Kind of like, yeah, just stick with this. It’s working and you’re feeling it working. So my sleep improved.
19:48
Christine
Just able to wake up in the morning and be able to get going so much more quickly, being able to settle at night and get to sleep more easily and more quickly, definitely, she said, slowing down, brain getting a little bit sharper and also knowing when you need to rest and knowing that brain clarity will come back again and getting a lot less panicky and worried about things because you know that you’re improving, so you can be a lot more gentle with yourself when you’re having, even if it’s a tired 5 minutes like this is okay because I know in 5 minutes I’m going to be coming back again and I’ve just been able to commit to things more easily and show up and not have that worry of will I be well enough for this, that and the other for living.
20:42
Christine
I can do it now.
20:45
Dylan Petkus, MD
Awesome. Love it. So much good stuff there. I mean, the sleep, the function in the day, being able to just have those commitments and stick to them and be able to be there and enjoy them are so awesome. And definitely being able to have, like you were saying, that group dynamic there. Because a lot of times people, when they start something, they’re all by themselves, they’re given a PDF or maybe some videos, and they’re like, all right, good luck. Talk to you soon. But being able to be in that group where you have people, they’re like, hey, Christine, I going through that exact same thing. Keep going. It gets better. Progress isn’t a straight line, it’s kind of the loop de loop kind of roller coaster.
21:24
Dylan Petkus, MD
But it is going up and up, and being able to really see that in you was kind of the juice for us in terms of being able to see Christine make those shifts and those changes and really being able to know that you have been able to, because you’ve been someone who’s been doing the work all along, just not in always the best frameworks possible. But being able to get that for you was really fun. And being able to really see those improvements in you and in terms of the trickle-down effect, because I know we talked about your kiddos before, and it’s something you mentioned a few times throughout the process together. And I know teenagers are teenagers. There’s only so much you can change.
22:06
Dylan Petkus, MD
But in terms of, for them, what were some shifts that you saw in terms of mom being more kind of active and all those things, and also some of the things that were good for the whole household?
22:20
Christine
Yeah, well, they’re certainly noticing and they’re really supportive because obviously I’ve tried all sorts and sometimes it could be, what’s mum doing this week? But this one, they kind of really got that. Yeah, this is serious. We are going for this. And they’ve adapted some of the tools that I use, and it’s helping them. One’s improving a little bit, the other one’s improving quite significantly, and that’s just doing a tiny bit of what I’m doing. But they’re younger, so hopefully faster results, but it is having a big impact on them and they’re able to do more as well.
23:06
Christine
So it isn’t just me emptying the dishwasher now I’ve got some help, which it sounds tiny, but when it’s just you emptying the dishwasher and now you’ve got other people who do it as well to come into the kitchen, it’s like, whoa, the kitchen has been done. How fabulous is that? And then I’ve got more energy for something else or just we go and have some fun together. But people do notice, and my friends are as well, actually. They’re like, so you’re doing this, you’re doing that. You look a bit better and people are noticing and they’re really interested. So it’s not me kind of doing some crackpot thing. Its friends and family are seeing the difference, which is fabulous, and they’re interested and can see awesome.
23:56
Dylan Petkus, MD
The horseback riding.
24:00
Christine
Yes. I restarted horse riding. I think it was perhaps a little bit just before I started, signed up for the course with you, and it was something I decided I was doing, decided I needed to do for my health, but it was really hard. And to begin with, I was having to rest in the lesson and sometimes go quite slowly. But after literally just a few weeks, the instructor was noticing that I could do more. And it actually wasn’t about stamina or fitness, it was just my body was working better, which I think kind of links to the pacing and things. It’s not about doing this so that you get fit. It’s about using all those tools that you get healthier. And my body didn’t feel I wasn’t kind of looking at my fitness.
24:56
Christine
I was just like, my body is responding and able to do this now. So with the horses. So we’ve done some quite technical riding where I have learned some new things about cantering and jumping. And my lesson now is at 08:30 in the morning. Whereas a few months ago there’s no way that I would have been able to, a, get up and b, be mentally and physically coordinated the ride at half eight in the morning. No way. But now I can. I’m up there in plenty of time to get the horse ready and have a chat with whoever I’m riding with. So it’s great. I’m up early and just naturally it’s not a big deal. It’s great.
25:35
Christine
And how lovely it is to be after that time and with the riding, my recovery, I used to get really achy afterward and have to really look after myself, whereas now I’ve forgotten about actually the aches and looking after myself because I don’t need to. My body’s working better, so I’m not sore afterward. That recovery time is so much quicker and having the energy during the lesson to keep going and be learning new stuff and going, jumping higher, going faster. It’s been really fabulous. And early days, still early days.
26:13
Dylan Petkus, MD
Love it. That’s something I was always teasing and asking Christine because I’ve never ridden a horse in my life, but I’d like to. I’m on a bouncy ball, so I got to do the horse sort of pantomime there. But yeah, being able to have something that is, I have never been on a horse, but I would imagine if you’re on a very large animal, you want to be able to focus, feel calm, relax, all that good stuff.
26:39
Dylan Petkus, MD
And being able to do that and being able to enjoy it as well is something that’s so important in such a good frame of reference because a lot of times people, they have their thing, whether it’s running, yoga or horseback riding, and that allows them to kind of have that metric in terms of like, okay, this is something that’s the time of day I can do. This is a lot better. My ability to do it is a lot more enjoyable. And so that’s just so fun to know that you’re able to integrate that back in and be able to bring some of these things back into your life and know that you’re smiling out there on the horse. And I guess one question for you, Christine?
27:14
Dylan Petkus, MD
Well, I know I asked you a bunch of questions today, but I was just thinking about in terms of you being someone who’s had this for so long and then being able to really shift in terms of how you’re able to go about your days. I mean, what’s been sort of the biggest sort of change in your outlook now that you have all the tools and you have them in place, and then as time goes on, you’ll get closer and closer to a point of where the horse is going to be worn out by you. What has that big shift in perspective been for you in terms of that sort of outlook and that hope?
27:51
Christine
It’s knowing I can do what I want to do. Now, as you were saying, to ride a horse, you need a lot of mental focus, physical coordination, and tying it all together. And to know that I can do that on a horse then means that, well, I can do that in a lot of other places in my life as well. And to be able to have that concentration, because my concentration had been awful, along with memory. So to know that I can build that up again into all aspects of my life is exciting. And now, rather than waking up kind of worrying, have I got the energy for the day? And even though I’m a positive person, I will admit when I’ve woken up in the morning, that’s my hardest time, that I can feel really low and really hard to get going.
28:38
Christine
Whereas now I’m waking up knowing that I have got the energy to do what I want today. So I’m now going to bed, looking forward tomorrow and waking up thinking, yeah, it’s today, let’s get going. So that’s been a huge change because I could always turn my mindset round, but it took a while. Whereas now I can wake up and it’s good. And that’s just such a fabulous way to start the day.
29:04
Dylan Petkus, MD
Fabulous. The word of the day is fabulous. And it’s been so amazing to see those turnarounds for you and being able to really be able to change the trajectory of so many things, not only for yourself, I mean, for your family, because I always imagine with you, I’m like, oh, man, being able to have even just one year of these things, being able to kind of turn back the hands of time against the last, like, 30 or 40, and then five years, and then you’ll be that person who is like, who is this 65-year-old person who has more energy than these 25, 30-year-olds? All these, what is she on? But the answer is very little things, just a little bit of the tools, and you want to have those in place.
29:52
Dylan Petkus, MD
It’s been so awesome to see your journey, where you were, where you’ve gotten to, and where you’re going to keep going. Christine. And it’s going to be really exciting to keep seeing that progress and that smile and all the pictures in the graduate group as well. And so, really, Christine’s story here is such an amazing sort of view in terms, know, this is something that can go on for far too long, like decades. And so many people, they start out and gonna, maybe I’ll turn around in a few months, a year, and then it kind of just becomes something that is. And the thing that’s really amazing about Christine is that she always kept going. She always knew there was something she could do, no matter what it was.
30:39
Dylan Petkus, MD
Being able to get her mind right, be able to find the right things, and then be able to follow through with them and be able to move up in a way, because she knows there is that life of where she’s able to be on the horse, be mom, who was able to be on top of her kids and be able to really be able to enjoy that family again. And that’s why it’s always been so amazing to see all the progress and everything you’ve been able to do. Christine. And where it all started was in terms of being able to reach out to us. I mean, maybe you’ve already seen the master class, maybe you haven’t. If you haven’t, go check it out. But the thing here is that she saw the link to connect with us, and I’ll have that down below.
31:19
Dylan Petkus, MD
That’s optimalcircadianhealth.com/talk. And that is where you book a time to talk with us, and we get down to like, okay, what are the problems that you’re experiencing? What is really going on? How is that showing up? What’s the severity of this? And then being able to really get clear on what that means for you, but also, what are your goals in terms of how many horses do you want to ride? Maybe you don’t want to ride horses. I don’t know. But being able to really get you from where you are to where you want to go and being able to know that you’re a fit for a system that will get you there, because if you’re not, I will. In our team, we’ll let you know. But if you are, that’s where you can know.
31:55
Dylan Petkus, MD
Just like Christine here, being able to go from point of where you’re not being able to really keep up with all the basics to being able to get to that normal sort of level where you’re really approaching that normalcy in terms of where you really want to be and see yourself and just being able to enjoy life to the fullest, which is really what it’s all about here. And so if that’s what you’re up for, you can go ahead, go to optimalcircadianhealth.com/talk. Go to the link, you pick a time, you fill out a form, and then me or a member of our team will talk to you there and see what kind of large mammal we can get you on. Whether that’s a horse, perhaps a whale, probably not a whale, but definitely more into an enjoyable life. In all seriousness here.
32:39
Dylan Petkus, MD
So, Christine, I want to thank you so much for sharing your story with me and everyone else here today and really excited to see you continue to grow and really get to that level of where you probably shouldn’t take a selfie on a horse. That sounds like a really bad idea, so don’t do that, but just let us know that you’re having fun. All right? Okay, everyone. All right, so thank you, everyone, for watching, and I will see your name pop up on the calendar, all right?